Discipleship Network Forum

I once heard a powerful sermon on doing the impossible. The preacher posed the question “Does God require too much?” Of course, he gave us the solution to the seeming impossibility of meeting the expectations (doing greater works than Christ, being perfect, making disciples, etc.). They were:

1. Be in the circle of God’s will.

2. Wait for God’s timing.

3. Taks some risks. (You can’t walk on water unless you get out of the boat.)

4. Focus on Jesus.

5. Harness prayer power.

It was, as I said, a powerful message. And there was absolutely nothing about it with which I did not agree. And yet, over the following weeks I found myself composing a sequel message for my own soul.

The title of my message to myself was: Don’t Even Think About Doing the Impossible!

It wasn’t that I didn’t firmly believe that, as Paul preached, I can do all things through Christ’s strength---even the humanly impossible (Philippians 4:13). My message sequel to myself was about Thinking about doing the impossible. It was not about whether or not the impossible could be accomplished in and through me.

In my experience, when human beings think too much about doing the impossible, they have a tendency to become either petrified or proud. In the same sermon mentioned earlier, it was pointed out that there are 366 “Fear not’s” in the Bible---one for every day of the year, plus one. Pride---“getting a glide in your stride”---was also warned against.

The only way I can approach doing the impossible without becoming either petrified or proud, is not to think about how to do it, but rather to pray for the courage to let the impossible be done in and through me. When I think about (or focus on) how I can accomplish the impossible, even in Christ, I have a tendency to feel in some control of the process (which feeds pride). Especially when I have a list of steps to take to accomplish the impossible. Or, I just run the other way---petrified by the impossible.

On the other hand, if I think about (or focus on) clearing myself out of the limelight while having the courage to let God take control and do whatever He needs to in me to accomplish the impossible, I find peace instead of being either petrified or proud.

English grammar helps me understand this concept.

When I am the subject of the sentence, it reads like this: “Kathy does the impossible through Christ. Kathy does greater works than Christ in the power of the spirit.” (See proud Kathy. See Kathy get a “glide in her stride”).

But when I am just the object of the preposition it reads like this: “God does the impossible through Kathy. God does great works through Kathy. God is perfecting Kathy. God is being honored by Kathy.”

Somehow thinking as if I am the one doing the actions tempts me to pride if I have the personality that appears to be able to do them. Even thinking about being the subject of the sentence petrifies me if I don’t innately have that inner fortitude, and I avoid the concept of the impossible altogether.

Think of God as a Father who has three children who have been playing in the mud. He calls his children (humanity) in to ready them (the impossible) for a visit from the relatives (all other created beings in the universe). One child is petrified at the thought of the father’s sending him to the tub and scrubbing away the dirt, so he hides under the bed. Another child is so independent and capable that he insists on drawing his own bath and washing and dressing himself. The third child is courageous enough to let the father lead him to the tub, scrub him clean, and even button his shirt. He obediently complies, making no thought about how he looks.

When the universe relatives come to greet the three children lined up on the front porch, just imagine in your mind’s eye what they see. Petrified is still a mess, Proud has mud behind his ears, around his neck, and his shirt is buttoned wrong. But Peaceful stands their happily without even thinking about how the impossible was accomplished in and through him.

My children(2 boys & a girl-ages 15,13 & 11) & I read from a devotional book each morning. I used to get feedback which would create some great discussions but for the last few months nothing. Maybe I should try a new devotional book, any ideas? It seems it has almost become a chore to do our devotionals and some days I am afraid I am pushing them away rather than strengthening their relationship with the Lord.

This is especially true with my 15 yr.old. I worry knowing he is growing up fast and my inlfuence on his spirituality is becoming less and less.

I've been blogging a short series about our inner life, discipleship, community, and ministry, inspired by an article by Henri Nouwen years ago in the Spring 1995 issue of Leadership. Find the most recent blog here.

A short excerpt from the blog that you may find interesting:

It seems to me that in today's church culture, we put everything else in front of solitude.

• Some put discipleship first. They say it all starts here. That we have to teach people how to grow and serve and share their faith.
• Some put evangelism first. Our first priority, they say, is to carry out the mission to make disciples.
• Some put leadership first. Everything begins with leaders who model the abundant life and bring others along, right?
• Some put community first. After all, they say, all of this good stuff happens in the environment of authentic Biblical community. So we have to build small groups.

Jesus said, "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." We seek God's Kingdom by being committed to the King.

Pleasr check out the rest of the blog here and I'd love to hear what you think.

Feel free to subscribe to my Small Group Leadership blog at http://smallgroupleadership.blogspot.com/.

Today's reading: JOHN 18:28-40; JOHN 19:1-16

John 19: 6 – 11 (NIV)

6 When they saw him, the leading priests and Temple guards began shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

"Take him yourselves and crucify him," Pilate said. "I find him not guilty."

7 The Jewish leaders replied, "By our law he ought to die because he called himself the Son of God."

8 When Pilate heard this, he was more frightened than ever. 9 He took Jesus back into the headquarters[a] again and asked him, "Where are you from?" But Jesus gave no answer. 10 "Why don't you talk to me?" Pilate demanded. "Don't you realize that I have the power to release you or crucify you?"

11 Then Jesus said, "You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin."

Daniel speaks to Kings

Daniel 4:24 - 28 (NIV)

²⁴ "This is the interpretation, Your Majesty, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: ²⁵ You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes. ²⁶ The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules. ²⁷ Therefore, Your Majesty, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue."

Daniel 5:20 - 23 (NIV)

²⁰ But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory. ²¹ He was driven away from people and given the mind of an animal; he lived with the wild donkeys and ate grass like the ox; and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven, until he acknowledged that the Most High God is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and sets over them anyone he wishes.

²² "But you, Belshazzar, his son have not humbled yourself, though you knew all this. ²³ Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.

I read this book and it really helped me understand some of the disciplines that are foundational for spiritual growth. I created a table which compares and contrast the disciplines versus what the world is offering. I have also added some quotes from the book and other sources. I hope this will help us all grow in Christ.

Disciplines of the Christian Life

So you want to be like Christ by Charles Swindoll (on the left)

So you want to be like the world by Scott Williams (on the right)

“Distance from God is a frightening thing. God will never adjust His agenda to fit ours. He will not speed His pace to catch up with ours; we need to slow our pace in order to recover our walk with Him.” (page 9)

“Superficiality is the curse of our age. The doctrine of instant satisfaction is a primary spiritual problem. The desperate need today is not for a greater number of intelligent people, or gifted people, but for deep people.”(Richard Foster Celebration of Discipline)

“Notice that the first four disciplines have to do with getting rid of something, creating room in your life. The next four contribute vitality and authenticity to your spiritual life.”

(page 22)

IDOLATRY — the worship of something created as opposed to the worship of the Creator Himself. Scores of references to idolatry appear in the Old Testament. This shows that idolatry probably was the greatest temptation our spiritual forefathers faced.

WORSHIP — reverent devotion and allegiance pledged to God; the rituals or ceremonies by which this reverence is expressed. The English word “worship” comes from the Old English word “worthship,” a word that denotes the worthiness of the one receiving the special honor or devotion.

³⁷ Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ ³⁸ This is the first and greatest commandment. ³⁹ And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ⁴⁰ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:37-40)

⁷ But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. ⁸ What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ (Philippians 3:7-8)

1. “The simplicity which is in Christ is rarely found among us. In its stead are programs, methods, organizations, and a world of nervous activity which occupy time and attention, but can never satisfy the longing of the heart.” ( Tozer: The Pursuit of God, page 17)

2. “If we would find God amid all the religious externals, we must first determine to find Him, and then proceed in the way of simplicity.” (Tozer: page 18)

3. “The evil habit of seeking God-and effectively prevents us from finding God in full revelation.” (Tozer: page 18)

4. “We become a child of God through faith, we become a disciple through sacrifice, but we become mature through time.” (Andy Stanley)

⁷ Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

(Galatians 6:7)

5. It is doubtful whether God can bless a man greatly until He has hurt him deeply. The Root of the Righteous, (Tozer)

6. You should expect spiritual warfare to increase as you start to develop your quiet time.

Spiritual growth is a process (months and years, never ending) not an event.

Disciplship has for decades has been very difficult for church bodies to embrace. It is very popular to talk about because it is incorrectly associated to Evengelism and church growth. I am not saying that it won't effect those area of a local church, but that's not the point. In fact true "disciplesip" will scare some away as Jesus said "are you too going to leave" (paraphrase) while his true disciples will respond and say Lord where shall we go for only you have the words of life.

I've never blogged before so I am doing a stream of consiousness and am not looking up scriptures. hopefully his word abides in my heart.

Discipleship can not be programmed or legislated. Discipleship is seeker friendly. We can inspire young believers to be seekers and as they seek we can disciple.

Discipleship is all about the maturing of the body of Christ. Christ is comming back for a bride that is ready for the groom. Unfortuneately discipleship is not for everyone, it is for the ones He has called. Mature believers in Christ need to resist the cultural wave and admit to themself that not everyone who goes to church is saved.

Judge not lest ye be judged and yet God has equiped with His Holy spirit so that we can discern and make sound and wise judgements with in the body. to discern good and evil. For many are called but few are chosen. I will grant you, there is much more to say on this subject and I know that there is, no doubt, a balance of other opinions. this is my first time here so i thought i'd get the ball rolling for some lively discussion.

The best way to get discipleship started in a church is by the church leadership being sold out for Christ and are visibly being discipled through the Word. As the leadership goes so will the flock.

God bless, Toby

I recently posted the following to our staff wiki (we are a rescue mission) because I believe recognizing our identity is the foundation of discipleship and our growth in Christlikeness.

We on staff come from a variety of backgrounds and cultures. Our experience as children and as adults varies a great deal. Some grew up in the city, some in the suburbs, and some in the country. Some grew up poor, some middle class. (I don't think we have anyone who grew up wealthy.)

We are men and women; of African, European and South American decent; young and not so young; athletic, intellectual and artistic. We come from happy homes and homes in turmoil. We are introverts and extroverts. Some lean toward task, some toward people.

Our religious experience is likewise varied. Some came to Christ at a very young age, others as adults. Some have stayed with the church of their youth, others have changed one or more times. The journey for some has been a steady climb toward Christ-likeness. For others, like me, there was a long prodigal experience.

We are life-long singles, happily marrieds, widowed and divorced.

There are some things, however, that we have in common. We all have our stuff, our baggage and our besetting sins. None of us is without struggle. We are all in recovery. In the words of Brennan Manning, "The Good News of the Gospel of Grace cries out: we are all, equally, privileged but unentitled beggars at the door of God's mercy!"

We are loved beyond understanding and forgiven completely by God Most High. God rescued each of us because He delights in each of us. Because of the great love He lavished on us, we are each called His children...and collectively the bride of Christ.

This is our dominant culture, our primary identity. We are, above all, heaven-bound brothers and sisters who will live together in eternal harmony. Nothing shall separate us from the love of Christ—ever!

All those things that make us different are important, even valuable. But they are not our primary identity. Our differences are temporal; our oneness in Christ is eternal! I pray that the identity we claim, the face we show each other and those we serve, is first and foremost the face of joyful forgiven saints.

I believe there is a misconception by many Christians today that we are unable, as Christians, to lead a victorious Christian Life. It seems that the conventional thinking is that we are destined to, as normative, to never get beyond, “For the good that I wish, I don not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish… Romans 7:19.” As I studied Romans 7, I came to the conclusion that Paul was describing himself when he was trying to obey the law in his own power, without the power of the Holy Spirit. The reason I came to this conclusion is that law is emphasized and the Spirit only mentioned once when indicating that the law was spiritual. When I study Galatians it appears that Paul, the same writer as that of Romans, indicates, “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carryout the desire of the flesh. Galatians 5:16.” Peter indicated that we have access to power to live more than defeated Christian lives in, “seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness… 2^nd Peter 1:3.” We are commanded, “As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves in all your behavior; because it is written, “You shall be holy , for I am holy. 1^st Peter 1:14-15.” I do not believe that God plays games with us by commanding us to do something he knows full well is impossible. Yes, it is impossible without the power of the Holy Spirit, but we do have the Holy Spirit. Paul also indicates how to live Christlike lives in, “I urge you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service and worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:1-2.” Paul, in the same book as Romans 7, indicates we can be transformed and that we do not have to be conformed to this world. Being conformed to this world means that we think and act like this world. Paul seems to be saying that it is possible that we can live a life that is not conformed to this world. He tells us it is by renewing our mind. Another puzzling thing to me is that Paul says, “I exhort you therefore, be imitators of me. 1^st Corinthians 4:16 and Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ and Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us, for many walk, of whom I often told you, and tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ…” If Paul were still struggling like what was described in Romans 7, why would anyone want to imitate him? The writer of Hebrews indicates that we can overcome sin by these words, “You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons… Hebrews 12:4-5.” If, as some believe, it is normative for a Christian’s private life, to consistently not be Christlike; it is quite saddening. Personally, I choose to believe scripture in spite of my personal experience, so I believe that the scriptures, some of what I shared above, indicate much more for Christians and for me personally. Have I always exhibited what I believe the scriptures promise, no. That is my fault and I know precisely why. When I only pray for maybe 10 minutes a day and only pick up my Bible infrequently, what more should I expect but that I will be easily defeated by the enemy. But, as I read of the great men of faith and their successful Christian lives and read about their prayer life, Bible studies, fasting, etc., there is no surprise that they led victorious Christian lives and I don’t. Instead of justifying my defeated experience, I need to get on my knees and repent of my prayerlessness and half-hearted attempts at being Christlike. God expects no less than sold out soldiers for his service. I for one am tired of living a defeated Christian life when I know God has provided the power to live a victorious Christian life. Join me in giving up prayerlessness and half-hearted attempts at being Christlike and start living a victorious

Christian life. With the help of the power of the Holy Spirit we can do it. Semper secuutus

The Message paraphrase of John 12:32 says this: "And I, as I am lifted up from the earth, will attract everyone to me and gather them around me." The next verse tells us what "lifted up" means—"He put it this way to show how he was going to be put to death" (v. 33). But what exactly does the term "attract" or "draw" imply? Is there anything inherently attractive about seeing someone dying by torture?

"Don't be simple," you say. "The attraction is in what Christ was doing for us on the cross."

And you are right. The attraction is grace—the power and force of His grace. Grace attracts (or draws) like a magnet. But magnetism also does something to the thing it draws. Let's consider grace in the context of magnetism and draw some simple analogies.

The obvious analogy is that magnets draw iron objects to themselves just as Christ said His grace would draw everyone. So, let's think of ourselves as iron bars. Just as humans are not born full of grace, iron bars are not born magnetic. They are made from liquid iron which solidifies. And they are in a condition which is referred to in science books as having their "domains randomly oriented." The places inside them that could be magnetic are going every which way; nothing is lined up right.

However, if a "randomly oriented" iron bar is put in a strong magnetic field, the domains all line up with the field, and the bar itself is said to be a "permanent magnet." So, once we have accepted Jesus' drawing grace, why aren't we all powerful little magnets drawing our children, our neighbors, anyone around us to the big magnetic field of Christ's grace?

The answer is in the fact that the "permanent magnet" state can be destroyed by heat or shock. And we can compare that to our everyday lives on this earth. There are forces that buffet and burn our best intentions. Even after our little iron bars have been drawn into the magnetic field, and magnetized, it doesn't mean that they are permanently permanent magnets. There must be a decided effort to keep returning them to the strong magnetic field of grace so they can remain magnetized.

If you want to see these principles in action for yourself, find a big magnet. Then find a few paper clips to represent our little iron-bar selves. Notice that one paper clip does not draw another when the first isn't near the "magnetic field." However, once a paper clip has been drawn to the big magnet, it becomes a magnet too. It can draw a second paper clip (or two or three) to join it at the big magnet.

So, how do I apply these principles to my daily life?

I must be very intentional about getting re-magnetized whenever I feel the heat and shock of life buffeting me. Which is to say—daily. I will want to ask myself these questions. When I face those I am discipling, am I still magnetized by grace? When I come home at the end of the day, have rush hour traffic and office politics shocked all magnetic grace from me, leaving none for my loved ones? Am I magnetized enough to be a force in keeping new members in the church? Are the young people I know drawn to Christ through me?

In short, "Just how magnetically attractive am I letting Him make and keep me?"

For approximately four years, a church which I attended was trying to develop a Discipleship Training Center. During our beginning stages, we polled the congregation to see what their experiences had been with Discipleship. To our surprise, the majority of them had no idea what discipleship was and the rest thought that Discipleship was synonymous with Evangelism. This misunderstanding was as prevalent among church leaders as it was among the laity.

For so many years there was a great emphasis on preaching the gospel and getting people saved but few were discipling those who got saved. Who of us would expect a newborn baby to raise itself? Yet we've expected new believers to become mature Christians without giving them the resources and support needed to succeed. No wonder there's so much confusion and spiritual immaturity in the Body of Christ.

I have been blessed to have a variety of discipleship experiences in my own life. I became a Christian and received some great discipleship through AWANA clubs. I had key individuals that would sit down with me one to one and walk through various topics of interest and/or need. I had another that fed me Scripture about things that were relevant to my life at the time. I went through a lot of Navigators material as a teenager and a young adult, and later in life, I went through some Campus Crusade materials. In discipling others, I have used various materials but most recently the Bill Bright's, "Ten Steps to Christian Maturity."

Personally, I think that we never outgrow the need for being discipled but if Discipleship is working correctly, it will lead to us discipling others.

I'm curious about the experiences that others have had in being discipled or discipling others. Will you share your story?

This true story is written by and about a pastor (Don Piper), who was killed instantly in a fatal accident on his way home from a pastor’s conference.

While the emergency team was waiting for the coroner’s vehicle to come and pick up Don’s dead body, another pastor came along and was told by God to pray over “the man in the red vehicle”. When the EMT’s told this other pastor that the man in the red vehicle was dead, the pastor insisted that he pray over him, as God had instructed to do. He climbed in the back seat of the wrecked vehicle, laid his hand on Don, who was in the driver’s seat, and began praying. Then, not knowing what to do after his prayer, he started singing “What A Friend We Have In Jesus”. As he was singing, Don came to life and started singing with him.

The pastor jumped out of the car and called for the EMT’s. They resisted coming over to the car, insisting that the man in the red vehicle was dead. Finally, one EMT came over just to resolve the matter and saw that Don had, indeed, come back to life.

This book tells of Don’s experience in heaven for the hour and a half that he lay dead in his wrecked vehicle. He tells of the friends and family who greeted him at Heaven’s gate and of the beautiful music he heard while there. Don, a humble man, has trouble with earthly words in his attempt to describe to the reader all the things he saw and heard while visiting Heaven.

Later chapters tell of Don’s horrific recovery and the pain, surgeries and depression he had to endure while crying out to God to please let him return to Heaven. Don fell into a deep depression because of the way his life had to change due of the accident. He came to the realization that his life would never be the same since he now had physical limitations.

Don was supported by his wife, other family members, church members and faithful friends who all played a part in getting him out of his depression.

A few years after his accident, for the first time he shared with one of his friends his experience in Heaven. He had kept quiet about it for so long, because he felt it was just too Holy an experience to discuss with others. Not even his wife knew. She didn’t even know he had died up until that point. But, in discussing it with his friend, Don came to realize that God wanted him to share his experience.

Don now travels and tells his story. He has been on radio and television sharing his encounter with others. He recognizes that God uses him to help give comfort and hope to others. And while the incident did, indeed, change his life, it has also been used to change the lives of many others.

I highly recommend this quick and easy read to everyone.