"Quote/Unquote" ~
Phil Miglioratti Interviewed the Author of "Attentive Church Leadership:
Listening and Leading in a World We've Never Known"
Phil>>> Kevin and Jim, what does the title of this book reveal to us about what motivated you to write it?
Kevin>>> The subtitle came more easily than the title. The subtitle is listening and leading in a world we've never known. The last several decades have ushered in an unprecedented era for the American church. During the 1980s and 1990s, the church was perceived as irrelevant to felt needs. So back then, many churches attempted to become “seeker friendly” but today, the church is often perceived as hostile or dangerous. This is a complex issue, but the reality is that churches, by and large, are not respected as good citizens. So, the question for us becomes how to lead in such a world? This requires a different posture for church leaders. We can no longer speak from a position of authority because society no longer grants us that authority. We have to start with a posture of attentiveness.
"The pandemic, protests, and political division create an overwhelming sense of outrage and frustration.
This is a time that begs for leaders."
Ed Stetzer (in the Foreword to the book)
Phil>>> Many would agree with Ed's statement but few, I think, would call for leaders to lead as an attentive listener. What makes attentive leadership so essential for the time in which we serve?
Kevin>>> We’ve always encouraged leaders to listen first. The kinds of issues facing the church today are transformational. They are full of competing values. When leaders don’t understand the various competing values of an issue they often make the wrong decision. We often say that today’s solutions become tomorrow’s problems. Leaders must be listeners. But this isn’t a passive posture. It’s active. They listen to God. They listen to their own souls. They listen to the congregation. They listen to their communities. And they even listen to their enemies. All of this helps a leader become a wise leader, rather than a reactive leader.
"How Do I Become An Attentive Person?"
Phil>>> I expected this chapter title to end with "Leader" ... Why is it so important to recognize that attentive leadership skills begin with me; who I am as a person?
Kevin>>> We are all sinful and broken. We tend to think of leadership as coming from a position of strength. Real leadership comes from our own awareness of our dark sides. I believe Mark Twain once wrote that “we are all like the moon, we all have a dark side that we wish no one to see”. As we see scandal after scandal unfold in today’s church, I believe most of those failures come from a place of denial. When leaders ignore their own soul care, they miss the blindspots. So we encourage every pastor and ministry leader to be in deep and authentic relationships. At Leighton Ford Ministries, we use a phrase that says leaders need safe times, safe places, and safe people to sustain ministry over the long-haul. Too many pastors are burning out, because they don’t have anyone to turn to. And too many are failing in ministry, because they have nobody to be a real friend on the journey. Many pastors want to portray an image of success, which is exacerbated by our current cultural narcissism. It is far better to remember that Christ is made strong through our weakness. Dr. Jim Houston, founder of Regent College and mentee of C.S. Lewis, was one of my mentors. Early in my ministry he said “Kevin, your achilles heel will be your compass in life.”
"Is the Tail Wagging the Dog?"
Phil>>> Please identify the "tail" and the "dog" then give us insight as to why this is a problem for many congregations and ministries.
Kevin>>> Every church needs a clear True North. Values that define who we are. A mission that clarifies what we do. A vision that inspires where we are heading. And strategies that help us get there. This is the “dog”. Over time, every church builds supporting structures and systems to align with the True North — buidlings, staff, committees, budgets, brands, and processes. These are the “tail”. So as a church grows and matures, leaders inevitably start paying more attention to the tail than they do to the dog. We see this in many ways, but very often we see it in the content of a board meeting. Many church boards (or staff teams) have regular meetings that focus primarily on tactical items — scheduling, decisions around budgets, staff hires, building maintenance or improvements. I would estimate that more than 95% of church meetings focus on tactical issues. There becomes a gradual disconnect between the True North and the supporting structures. The tail starts wagging the dog, eventually leading to the church’s decline. So we always recommend a regular process, every couple of years, to do a deep dive into the bigger questions related to True North. That is a huge step in creating a culture where the structures can re-align to the evolving True North.
"How Do We Create Community in a Narcissistic World?"
Phil>>> Talk with us about why leaders must be attentive to the infiltration of "cultural narcissism" in order to cultivate authentic, biblical, community in their ministry.
Kevin>>> I was recently in Pompeii. It was fascinating to tour the ruins with an archaeologist. One of the sites was the House of the Faun — a 32,000 square foot home with two indoor gardens dating back to the second century BC. The guide explained how important it was for these extremely wealthy people to have followers, the original “clients” who showed up at his front door every day. The more the better. This fed a lifestyle devoted to self-centered pleasure. I was struck at how our narcissistic tendencies are not new to the 21st century. Parts of our brains are activated and stimulated by having followers. What’s happened in the 21st century is simply a change in technologies. Whereas the owner of the House of the Faun might have several dozen followers show up each morning, today’s culture allows millions of followers on social media. I am not bashing social media. All technologies are value neutral. It’s what we do with them that matters. In a very real sense, cultural narcissism suggests that the most important value is having as many followers or likes as possible. To achieve that goal, leaders become more extreme and more polarizing in their words and behaviors. Pastors and ministry leaders must understand that cultural narcissism cannot coexist with the biblical model of community that we see in the early church — devoting themselves to the apostles teaching, to fellowship, having all things in common, giving to those in need, and enjoying the favor of all the people (not just their own tribe). As we toured Pompeii, our tour guide reminded us many times of how Christians were perceived as dangerous to the Roman empire. I believe that was primarily because Christians were suggested an entirely different set of values — dying to self, taking up our cross, and following a different kind of leader, one who gave up all that he was entitled to to become one of us.
"Every Church Has A Unique Internal Culture"
Phil>>> Agree or Disagree and explain why ... Every church or ministry has a unique culture but many leaders do not grasp the concept of culture nor do they have a plan to dismantle the old so that a new culture can be built.
Kevin>>> We use the term “ethos” to describe a church culture. Sometimes the ethos is incredibly healthy and inspiring. Sometimes it’s very unhealthy and dysfunctional. Too often, it’s invisible to the leaders who created it. This is why it’s so important for leaders to be attentive. They have to be attentive to their own blindspots, because those blindspots shape the church culture. Peter Drucker once said that “culture eats strategy for breakfast”. In our coaching and consulting work, we’ve seen countless churches who have a very compelling True North. But it’s undermined by the invisible culture, often a culture of fear or control. For ethos to be effective, it has to be one that empowers the congregation to be the ministers — in their workplaces, neighborhoods, and families. It has to give the ministry away. A healthy ethos must create a sense of belonging, letting people know that they matter and that they can make a difference.
"How Do We Facilitate Real Transformation?"
Phil>>> Leaders must understand "real" transformation and the skill of facilitating as the model to equip the church to make changes. Please define "real" and describe how facilitating is essential for transformational leaders.
Kevin>>> We differentiate between three modes of leadership — strategic, tactical, and transformational. Each mode aligns with a particular problem or challenge. Each challenge then requires a different leadership tool. Strategic challenges are driven by external contextual changes. When the pandemic shut every church in the country, leaders had to change their strategies and tactics. When a church is no longer meeting the needs of her local community, strategic and tactical leadership requires leaders to be decision-makers. Set a new course. Given a new vision, Hire a new worship leader. But transformational challenges, as we discussed earlier, are related to competing values. A church decides to relocate to a better location. But what about the cemetery? What about the elder whose grandparents rebuilt the church after it was burned down? Every church faces transformational issues where competing values, behaviors, and attitudes create a complex situation. We often see the issues that are dividing Americans playing out in the church. In these issues, the leader needs to listen before making any decisions. Listen to the various viewpoints. Get people to talk to each other. As a facilitator, ask people to listen and validate the other person’s perspectives. At some point, the leader will need to make a decision. Sometimes that decision is to wait, to let the temperature cool down a bit. Sometimes the leader may decide not to decide, and be okay with it. And in those circumstances when the leader still needs to choose one value over another, the leader’s role must shift from visioncaster to grief counselor.
"In a world screaming for our attention...it is essential for God's people to become attentive."
Phil>>> One more comment we would do well to ponder . . .
Kevin>>> We will only earn the right to be heard, when we start by listening.
"It is our prayer that you will become an attentive Christ follower..."
Phil>>> Prayer may be the most attentive action we need to take. Please write a prayer we can use to become more attentive as both a person and a leader.
Kevin>>> Lord, please bring light to my own darkness. Bring people into my life who can be safe friends, who will accept my weaknesses and help me grow through them. Help me be attentive to your voice and to the voices of those you’ve entrusted me to lead. Help me listen to my enemies so that I can love them as you do. Today, I give my anxiety to you as I attempt to be lead in a world I’ve never known. By the way, God, help me do the same thing tomorrow.
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