Phil Miglioratti Interviewed Robert Tolliver,
Author of “Making Disciplers Who Make Disciplers”
Who? What? Why? How?
WHO?
PHIL>>> Bob, please share a brief bio that gives us an introduction to your disciplemaking profile.
BOB>>> I'm an only child, born breech birth on a farm in south central Illinois on a cold and snow day in March. The country doctor pronounced me, "dead". Abundantly blessed to have been raised in a home where the Bible was read, revered, memorized, and preached, I accepted Christ at age six. Following high school I attended a very small Christian junior college in southwest Missouri where I felt God called me into vocational Christian ministry. The next year, because my father accepted the call to be the first pastor of a brand new church in southern Arizona, I transferred to a four-year Christian college there where I graduated as a vocal music major with a B.S. degree in Music Education with minors in journalism and psychology in 1961.
I received a Master's Degree in Religious Education in 1964 from SWBTS in Texas with a triple major in Adult and Youth Education and Journalism. I served thirteen years as a staff member in various church positions in KS, MO, and IL, and the next thirteen years as a pastor in MO, IA, and WI. During the IA pastorate God expanded our ministry footprint to include itinerant ministry as a revivalist and equipper. Our 501.c.3 ministry, Life Unlimited Ministries, continues today. In the mid 1990's our ministry expanded again to include short term overseas trips while pastoring in WI. During those years, my understanding of biblical discipleship was generally superficial and my experience with it was minimal and typically traditional.
Then, during a short-term mission trip in 2002 leading a team of university students to Kyiv, Ukraine, a major international missions organization asked Jo Ann and me to come to Kyiv to pastor a ten-year-old English language international church. We arrived New Year's Day in 2003 and, because it was my job to help transition that congregation away from having foreign missionaries as pastors, it was there that I began to take a more serious look at discipleship in order to leave a strong leadership group in place, examining scripture to understand the biblical view. I realized that in the previous forty-seven years of ministry, I had assumed that discipleship was automatic, taking place from the pulpit, Sunday school classes, and Bible study groups. To my shame, I realized that I had done almost nothing that resulted in me having a "replacement", much less replication or multiplication of future disciplers. In spite of many measurable successes, I had utterly failed to understand and implement the Great Commission as expressed by Jesus.
Following completion of our assignment with that church Jo Ann and I returned to the States the end of 2005, raised our own support, and returned to plant a brand new church on the other side of the city of 4.5 million people for the expressed purpose of reaching internationals living there. Our entire leadership was committed to guide the new church based on Matthew 28:18-20 and 2 Timothy 2:2. God blessed above and beyond all expectations and within the first two years we had ministries in seven different language groups. It was in that church that the contents of this book were fleshed out and put into practice.
PHIL>>> Who were you thinking about when you wrote “Making Disciplers Who Make Disciplers?”
BOB>>> That's a question easy to answer: -- three people and one group. Obviously, my father, who had been such an example of "unknowing lifestyle mentoring". Then the young man who ultimately asked me to write this book, and the first person he led to Christ in his language group ("Mark" and "Franco" in the book), and finally, the thousands of pastors who have served so faithfully and sincerely under the mistaken assumption that discipleship comes automatically from their preaching and their various Bible teaching ministries of their churches.
WHAT?
PHIL>>> What is the problem in congregations or ineffective thinking of leadership that prompted you to write?
BOB>>> I actually didn't write the book for anyone other than "Mark" at first. He asked me if I would write a book covering the things I had taught him, "Franco", and others in my "Timothy Fellowship" for three years so he could translate it into his native language and share it with the vast network of new believers and leaders scattered throughout many countries through his different social media platforms. That is an amazing story in itself. At its peak that part of the ministry was the largest social media ministry to that language group in the world, at one point reaching between five and ten million people a week.
However, as I began writing the book for him, I thought it could also be beneficial to other believers in other languages, especially for English speaking pastors and church leaders. The more I wrote and the more I thought, the more convinced I was that the western Church has seriously misunderstood and misapplied the fulfillment of the Great Commission to "make disciples of all nations". So, "Mark", today the founder and owner of what is now the largest Christian translating company in the world, did all the work for it to be published on Amazon in Kindle, paperback, and hardback.
PHIL>>> Identify a few critical topics you cover and what is their relationship to our modes and methods of discipleship?
BOB>>> I think, to begin with, the very definition of biblical discipleship itself as found in Mk 16:15, Mt 28:18-20, Acts 1:8, and 2 Tim 2:2. How can we do biblical discipleship when we have an incomplete understanding of what it really is -- and what it is not? I try to define true biblical discipleship as Jesus explained it. Then, I also take a look at the seven primary commands of Jesus, the last of which is to make disciplers who make disciplers; we cannot fully grasp the import of His last command unless we also examine the progression of the other six. I also try to define and describe the Gospel itself as Paul defined it in Romans 1:16 and described it in 1 Corinthians 1, 2, and 15. It seemed to me that we will seldom take the Great Commission seriously unless we understand the full implications of the Gospel itself.
In several chapters I also examine various leadership qualities necessary if one is to be an effective and fruitful disciple maker. I also try to address the qualifications a discipler needs to look for in the people he wants to mentor and disciple. How to handle hardships, opposition, and disappointment one will likely face as a maker of disciplers, and how to love your disciplers, no matter what. There are 28 short chapters and two Addendums of auxiliary material covering about 24 topics.
WHY?
PHIL>>> Why should we be concerned?
BOB>>> During the first 47 years of my ministry I assumed that solos, sermons, and studies would automatically create the process of multiplying disciplers. Not only do those things not create disciplers, they usually don't even create disciples. They may inform, educate, inspire, and even challenge us in our understanding and our conduct, but in and of themselves they do not make disciplers. Converts, yes; followers, yes; worshipers, yes; witnesses, yes -- but not disciplers.
The Great Commission cannot possibly be fulfilled -- it's mathematically impossible -- unless we become proactively serious about biblical discipleship. We should be concerned because 1) the world's population is growing, 2) we can't keep up, 3) we're losing ground daily, 4) more people than in all human history are headed to an eternity without Christ, 5) the paradigm we've used for so many years does not work in an ever expanding population, 6) we've been commanded by Jesus Himself to reach the nations, and 7) the return of Jesus Christ seems to be just around the corner. If those things do not concern us, then we have very hard hearts.
PHIL>>> Why must we pursue change?
BOB>>> I take a chapter or two to point out a glaring reality that we don't like to admit -- it is mathematically impossible to fulfill the Great Commission if we keep to the same practices because, "If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting." To continue doing the same things the same way and expect better results is the epitome' of religious idiocy. If we're truly serious about fulfilling the Great Commission, we have to restore true biblical discipleship to the life of the believer and make it a top priority in our churches. Tragically we have become content with the principles of additions when the Great Commission is built around the principle of multiplication.
Throughout His entire earthly ministry, Jesus operated on the principle of multiplication rather than addition. In John 15 He talked about "no fruit, fruit, more fruit, and much fruit". The parable of the sower is another example. When He talked about harvesters, it was in multiples. Even when talking about a grain of wheat falling into the ground, the end result was "much fruit" as opposed to one grain "being alone".
When it comes to the average church or in the life of the average pastor, discipleship is rarely intentional, and usually incidental or accidental. There is not a single iota of evidence that discipleship was to be anything other than deliberate, intentional, personal, relational, and hands on. In one of the chapters I talk about the Great Commission being a mandate -- a mandate given like a military command, a legal jurisdictional responsibility, and a royal representative ambassadorship representing a king. If for no other reason, we must change simply to be obedient to what Jesus specifically commanded. You've heard it before -- "To fail to obey is to disobey."
HOW?
PHIL>>> How do we begin to assess our specific situation: objectively, biblically, courageously?
BOB>>> The beginning point is obviously to be blatantly and humbly honest about where we are. As long as we think things will change while we don't change, nothing will change. The Great Commission is not relative, and neither is discipling disciplers. There is a biblical plumb line Jesus has dropped from the heavens with eternity as its weight. Forget about your traditional thoughts about discipleship. Leave your past measurements of success and effectiveness in the past. Do away with weak, lazy, moronic excuses.
Look at your own stats. How many people have come to faith in Christ in ratio to your church membership? How many people have come to faith and become strong disciple makers from your preaching? How many disciplers have come out of your Sunday school classes? How many people are you personally meeting with weekly with the intent of equipping them to be disciple makers themselves? You may have lots of spectators watching your performance, and you may even have a good number of learners who grow personally -- and even witness; but where are your disciplers whom you personally discipled to become discipler makers?
Honest evaluation, accompanied by humbled broken praying will always be the beginning point for a thrilling and glorious future. Ask God to show you specific individuals who seem to have the heart to be learners willing to be obedient to Christ and become disciple makers themselves. Then sit down with them and expose your heart and share your vision. See what happens and then begin following the direction the Lord shows you. It may be challenging, but it's really pretty simple -- just doing what Jesus did when He called His twelve.
It may come as a surprise to some, but not a single one of Jesus' twelve came out of His public preaching. Every single one came from His personal interaction with them and His personal invitation. They were obviously influenced and informed by His three areas of ministry -- preaching, teaching, meeting needs -- but they became disciplers by being called by Him, following Him, learning from Him, obeying Him, and being sent by Him. As a result, historical evidence shows that by 38 AD, -- that's only five years following His resurrection -- the Gospel had been preached in Northumbria, today's northern England and southern Scotland.
PHIL>>> How do we begin inviting others into the process of praying? Reimagining? Reformatting?
BOB>>> Change for the sake of mere change will never produce lasting change. You'll be back in the same rut -- just at a greater depth. Someone said that a rut is merely a grave with both ends kicked out. Back in the 1980's I pastored a church in Wisconsin. One day while driving from our ministry's retreat center where we lived into town, I had a vivid view of our town as if it was about to be destroyed by a horrible storm. This was an extremely rare experience for me. The approaching billowing clouds grew darker and more ominous as it drew closer. Ahead of the storm front was a line of lighter fluffier clouds. The Holy Spirit spoke so strongly to my heart that I literally had to pull off the road and weep. He showed me that the only things holding back the moral and spiritual destruction of my town were the prayers of God's people.
I had stopped my car just before the street that led to a pastor friend from another denomination. I knew I had to tell someone, so I drove directly to his church and told him what had just happened. He broke down in tears and told me he was sensing the same thing. We agreed to begin praying weekly together for our town. Within three or four weeks, fourteen of the twenty-four pastors began meeting to pray for each other, for each other's churches, and for our town. Six of us continued for several years.
The results were extraordinary. A city-wide youth movement developed that resulted in "See You At The Pole" events, concerts, and neighborhood outreach. A Christian financial aid to single mothers was established so they could buy cars by which to get to work. A clothing and food outreach was developed. Men in the community banded together to provide free oil changes and car repairs for single mothers and seniors. The National Day of Prayer and Good Friday services were regularly observed. A monthly Concert of Prayer rotated among the churches. Annual citywide crusades developed featuring speakers such as Richard Owen Roberts, T. W. Hunt, and Peter Marshall, Jr. And -- all animosity and competitive spirits between pastors in our monthly meetings simply melted away.
So, what's my point? Find one or two like-minded people who have the same passion that you have; share your ideas with them and begin praying together. Follow the admonition of Jesus -- "Do not cast your pearls before swine." Do NOT share your vision or plan with larger groups of people. There will always by a naysayer who will throw water on the whole idea, and that person's negativism will quickly quench your zeal. How did Jesus call His first disciplers who were to themselves become the second generation of disciplers? He called them one or two at a time.
One of the points I try to make in the book is that out of Jesus' three arenas of ministry -- public, corporate, and private -- not a single one of His 12 disciples came out of his public or corporate ministries. They were all personally, intentionally chosen. He Himself said, "many are called; but few are chosen." He told them, "You didn't choose me; I chose you."
So, my point is -- find one or two people who think the way you do about discipleship, start meeting regularly, discussing and praying together, ultimately asking God to show you the specific people you need to invite into a discipleship adventure.
PHIL>>> Bob, write a prayer we can use to launch ourselves into a Spirit-led journey of making disciplers who make disciplers…
BOB>>> Father, we come to you in the Name of Your Son because He told us we could and should. Please show us the urgency of our day. Break our hearts of the conditions around us and the needs of the people we see and know. Give us discernment as to how we are to respond to drawing people to You. Give us discernment as to specific people you want us to bring into our lives to be discipled into themselves becoming disciplers. Protect us from discouragement when people reject our offer or drop out of that relationship. Turn us into intentional, courageous, and persistent disciplers, and help us invite "the cream of the crop" to become part of a growing and vast movement of disciple makers, reaching far beyond anything we could ever imagine. Remind us every day of how critical these days are and how crucial our role may be in Your plan of redemption. Empower us with Your Holy Spirit, and let us become people who never give up, never give in, and never give out as we join You in kingdom ventures. In the name of Jesus, by His grace, and for His kingdom, Amen
+ Bob's "Featured Contributor" Commentary to "Discipleship Specturm" * Scroll to comments
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Wow, it's telling that after all his Christian education and mentoring by other church leaders, he still "assumed that discipleship was automatic, taking place from the pulpit, Sunday school classes, and Bible study groups." and "During the first 47 years of my ministry I assumed that solos, sermons, and studies would automatically create the process of multiplying disciplers. Not only do those things not create disciplers, they usually don't even create disciples. They may inform, educate, inspire, and even challenge us in our understanding and our conduct, but in and of themselves they do not make disciplers. Converts, yes; followers, yes; worshipers, yes; witnesses, yes -- but not disciplers." That's certainly not an indictment of Bob, but of the failings of "church as we know it" to teach church leaders that discipleship is far more personal and intensive.
If you haven't seen my blog's recent 10th anniversary series, it addresses many of these issues:
https://blog.meettheneed.org/2025/06/decline-and-revitalization-of-...
https://blog.meettheneed.org/2025/06/are-you-a-disciple-or-a-cultur...
https://blog.meettheneed.org/2025/07/the-parishioners-progress/
https://blog.meettheneed.org/2025/07/churchs-path-to-the-celestial-...
From Bob Tolliver -
But, when I began studying the Bible more closely, I realized that, while they may have heard and learned -- and even followed -- from Jesus' public ministry, not a single one of his twelve were called, mentored, and sent from it. Every single one was called, trained, and sent through His personal "hands on" discipling. While I had made some generally mediocre attempts during those years, it wasn't until Jo Ann and I went to Ukraine as missionaries that I made a serious effort to replicate what Jesus did.
The results were profound. I met weekly with 14 guys from six countries, and out of those years, some of the seven language groups with whom we ministered grew exponentially. One group particularly, the main focus of my book, started with one sixteen year old university student to become the largest social medial ministry in the world to that group -- at one point sharing the Gospel and training leaders to as many as five to ten million people a week. The story is simply to enormous to describe further in this letter.
I remember hearing my longtime friend, Dr. Robert E. Coleman (Master Plan of Evangelism fame) state that if we would "make disciples who make disciples who make disciples", He would build His Church and the Great Commission would be fulfilled. So, that's what my book turned out to be all about. My passion is that Christians -- and especially pastors, discipleship leaders, and other church leaders -- will come to understand that it is mathematically impossible to fulfill the Great Commission doing it the way we've been doing it, and it is imperative that we begin taking personal responsibility to mentor and raise up a generation of genuine "disciplers who make disciplers who make...." Otherwise, we're fighting a losing battle that we can never win.
So, I'd urge you to consider reading the book. I think you'll find it quite different from most books on discipleship. A couple of my friends equated it to Dr. Coleman's book, and one even told me it impacted him more than any other book outside of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Disipleship. Both remarks were humbling to say the least. (BTW, I'm not trying to sell the book to increase sales; all royalties go to our ministry's Ukraine fund from which we send funds monthly to people and ministries in Ukraine during this troubling time of war.